Cargostar/Models by Dave-UPDATE -2/25/15

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Re: Cargostar/Models by Dave-UPDATE -NEW CAB!!

Postby Aaronw on Sat Nov 07, 2009 3:10 am

Hmmm, I might be able to find a use for one of those. :D

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Re: Cargostar/Models by Dave-UPDATE -NEW CAB!!

Postby old imagineer 501 on Sat Nov 07, 2009 5:06 pm

WOW! That's some terrific stuff Dave!

I love the Spartan - BEAUTIFUL WORK!!

I have some masters of some stuff you might be interested in: a right and left side square step tank, MSA airpack cases, and a couple of different tires for crash rigs. Interested? I'll share... :) Let me know and I'll send photos...

Tim
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Re: Cargostar/Models by Dave-UPDATE -NEW CAB!!

Postby old imagineer 501 on Sat Nov 07, 2009 5:09 pm

Hey Aaron, what the heck color is that anyway? I must be getting more color blind as I get older. Is that like a deep mint green? Is that standard in the USFS now?

Tim
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Re: Cargostar/Models by Dave-UPDATE -NEW CAB!!

Postby Aaronw on Sat Nov 07, 2009 6:05 pm

The "standard" USFS green really isn't a standard, it is a bunch of kind of similar light greens varying based on region, brand of truck, date of build and amount of weathering. That was an '87 or '88 Model 42, to my eye a bit bluer than the more recent trucks. Great little fire trucks, only two wheel drive but they got around twisty forest roads like a mountain goat.

It just happens I'm working on an online modelers guide to USFS apparatus, hopefully appearing on a site near you soon. :D
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Re: Cargostar/Models by Dave-UPDATE -NEW CAB!!

Postby old imagineer 501 on Sat Nov 07, 2009 6:28 pm

OU-RAH! Looking forward to it! I have a keen (if not professional) interest in all things Smokey the Bear!

Thanks Aaron,

Tim
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Re: Cargostar/Models by Dave-UPDATE -NEW CAB!!

Postby csp448 on Sat Nov 07, 2009 8:36 pm

Hey Dave , please forgive me for my ignorance . but what is an " indian tank " :?: :?: :?: :oops: :?
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Re: Cargostar/Models by Dave-UPDATE -NEW CAB!!

Postby Aaronw on Sat Nov 07, 2009 8:43 pm

csp448 wrote:Hey Dave , please forgive me for my ignorance . but what is an " indian tank " :?: :?: :?: :oops: :?



It is the older style backpack pump with a metal tank used for wildland fires, it has a trombone style pump "gun". One of the big manufacturers was Indian, so they became known as Indian cans or tanks.

Basically it is an old school super soaker squirt gun. :mrgreen:
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Re: Cargostar/Models by Dave-UPDATE -NEW CAB!!

Postby Aaronw on Sat Nov 07, 2009 8:45 pm

old imagineer 501 wrote:OU-RAH! Looking forward to it! I have a keen (if not professional) interest in all things Smokey the Bear!

Thanks Aaron,

Tim



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Re: Cargostar/Models by Dave-UPDATE -NEW CAB!!

Postby Aaronw on Sat Nov 07, 2009 9:45 pm

This is an Indian can, they hold 5 gallons of water.

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Re: Cargostar/Models by Dave-UPDATE -NEW CAB!!

Postby Daveski25 on Sun Nov 08, 2009 1:02 am

And they were made here in Utica NY!

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Re: Cargostar/Models by Dave-UPDATE -NEW CAB!!

Postby hooknladderno1 on Sun Nov 08, 2009 1:39 am

old imagineer 501 wrote:WOW! That's some terrific stuff Dave!

I love the Spartan - BEAUTIFUL WORK!!

I have some masters of some stuff you might be interested in: a right and left side square step tank, MSA airpack cases, and a couple of different tires for crash rigs. Interested? I'll share... :) Let me know and I'll send photos...

Tim



Hey Tim,
I remember the MSA cases from the article you wrote. Never did get around to making any though. Could use one for my Bronco project... What type of crash truck? I have dillusions of someday building a P-19. I have been gathering information and photos for a while. Actually got to drive one many years ago while an EMT/Firefighter/Security Officer at the FAA Tech Center in Pomona NJ. What a rush! Wheels and tires would be the biggest challenge. One of the members here is currently wrapping up a crash truck project, and included a link to a great tutorial that he did on the wheels/tires. I'll have to give it a try one of these days.
Speaking of crash truck models, at the NNL East several yearsago, there was a gentlman who scratchbuilt a beautiful P-15. He even made a custom wooden carrying case to transport it in. Somwhere, I have photos of the unit, as well as several detail photos of a 1:1 P-15 from McGuire AFB. My department at the time, had the privilidge of "covering" the main fire station during the air show. We got to watch the entire show from the large metal deck atop the truck itself. What a view!!! Needless to say, this was pre- 9/11, and the sunburn was a small price to pay for such a great day!


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Re: Cargostar/Models by Dave-UPDATE -NEW CAB!!

Postby old imagineer 501 on Sun Nov 08, 2009 9:22 am

Send me your snail mail and I'll cast a few of the airpack cases for you. Probably won't be as good as Dave's stuff and I'm sure he could do better with my masters, but we'll get ya covered.

I have tires in 1/25th for the P-15 and an entire set of detail photos. I'll share, just let me know. I've started that project FOUR times. Each time, by the time I get all the plastic done, my skill level got better (by a couple of jumps) and I was ready to take a hammer to the early part of the project. I have one of the cannons done - about 50+ parts to it. I hope to get back to it when I finish the LAC Tanker. The 15, hands down, is the biggest monster rig rush I've ever had, tha's for sure!! The photos I have are of #7 at MacGuire.

I'll start scanning the P-15 file this week and get it posted.

Tim

PS - Also have tires and wheel centers for the MB-5. Go look at my site at www.oldimagineer.info and there is an article posted on making the wheels, casting, etc. though I would be in Dave's debt if he could let me know how to do it better (all please visualize me bowing and showing appropriate homage to Dave's obvious god-like casting skill. :lol: :D )
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Re: Cargostar/Models by Dave-UPDATE -NEW CAB!!

Postby Aaronw on Sun Nov 08, 2009 12:35 pm

Tim, the secret I found to casting is to "think like an air bubble" when I lay out a mold I try to look at the part and imagine where air might get trapped. I also pour my resin in two steps for some particularly tricky parts. I'll pour in just enough to cover the detail on each side of the mold, once that has set up a bit I'll come around with round two filling the rest of the space and putting the two halves together.

I've also found modeling clay to be a huge help. By using clay you can force the mold to seperate where you want it to split, not where the silicone or part naturally would put the seam. I imbed many of my small parts in clay, then pour the first half of the mold. Once that cures I go back and clean the clay away, then pour part two of the mold.

You can't use just any modeling clay, apparently many brands don't like silicone. I have some stuff that is kind of an olive drab color, I get from my casting supply place. It is cheap, about $3 for a 1 lb block (about 4x6x1") which is plenty. I bought 4 or 5 blocks a couple years ago and have only used up one of them.

Here are a few items I've done

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Re: Cargostar/Models by Dave-UPDATE -NEW CAB!!

Postby old imagineer 501 on Sun Nov 08, 2009 4:27 pm

Dave,

OK, so what do you use for the molding material and casting resin? Apparently Cast-0-Mold SR-HT isn't avaialable any more, though I see Alumilite is, which were my favorites. This is REALLY nice stuff - Maureen may actually let me buy some and if she doesn't, I may just have you send it to some other address and wait there on the front porch. :roll: :lol:
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Re: Cargostar/Models by Dave-UPDATE -NEW CAB!!

Postby Aaronw on Sun Nov 08, 2009 7:23 pm

I have TAP Plastic out here which a small chain store with an odd combination of industrial plastic supply and craft shop. I think the stuff they carry is Quik cast. Their Marin County store sells stuff to George Lucus' Industrial Light & Magic, so they carry 4x8' sheets of styrene in various thicknesses :shock: . The store I usually go to is not as exciting but they carry enough for my needs.

If you haven't done any casting in some time you may be in for a surprise, there are lots of casting suppliers now. Smooth On seems to be popular with many casters. Alumilite is still around, and Micro Mark carries a lot of casting supplies, even some low temp metals you can use with silicone. There are a bunch of others out there but I'm going blank on the names.

When I went to the IPMS Nationals in 2007 I was talking to a vender who had a lot of casting products including a food grade silicone so you could make molds for cupcakes and other baked items. :mrgreen:
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Re: Cargostar/Models by Dave-UPDATE -NEW CAB!!

Postby Fireband12 on Sun Nov 08, 2009 11:05 pm

Dave,

Cabs came in on Friday. Simply Awesome! Already got the Century prepped out and working on builing it onto my last project! It feels great to be modeling again.

Matt
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Re: Cargostar/Models by Dave-UPDATE -NEW CAB!!

Postby cargostar on Mon Nov 09, 2009 7:39 pm

Glad to hear it!

I've heard good and bad about every resin that is out there. It alot depends on what is easily available. I can say from experience that Alumilite is ok when it is fresh, but, it gets to be unpredictable as to how it will cure after it has been opened. I use Poly-tek Easy flow 60, which is available direct from Poly-tek, or from Bare Metal Foil Co.

There are two basic types of silicone. Platinum cure, and tin cure. They each have different mix ratios, and different products that will inhibit them from curing. One common inhibitor is sulphur. The adhesive on masking tape for example will not allow cure silicone to cure, it will remain gooey, forever. (voice of experience!)

Tim, your article steps are a good starting routine. Like Aaron said, clay is an asset now, I use a brand called Kleen-Klay, it is sulphur free. Building a mold box is how i started too, untill a friend pointed me to using Legos to build my boxes.. I use genuine Lego brand, as some of the no-name blocks are not truley square and will leak.

De-gassing the RTV after it is poured around your master will remove all of the air from the silicone, and using a pressure pot when casting will eliminate the bubbles in the reproductions, but both of the mentioned steps require some extra work on mold design, and creation.

I'd love to look at you masters and see what I could do with them!
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Re: Cargostar/Models by Dave-UPDATE -NEW CAB!!

Postby Aaronw on Mon Nov 09, 2009 8:52 pm

Kleen Klay is the same stuff I use, I kept wanting to call it King something. I've heard of the problems with masking tape, I must have been lucky because I used it quite a bit to close off areas I didn't want to have silicone go and never had issues. I use the clay now.

I also use Legos, you can order the individual blocks from Lego, so you don't have to sort through all the oddball stuff just to get the longer pieces useful for making a mold box. The prices are pretty reasonable and you can also color coordinate them, making it easier to keep the 2x3, 2x4, 2x6 and 2x8 pieces seperate.


Dave a lot of people are starting to drop the degassing stage completely. Instead they are letting the mold cure under pressure which does the same job but is less messy. I had everything set up to build a vacuum chamber when I found out about doing the molds under pressure. Obviously what you are doing works, but I thought I'd mention it. The less time you spend fooling with molds means more time for you to make masters. :mrgreen:
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Re: Cargostar/Models by Dave-UPDATE -NEW CAB!!

Postby cargostar on Mon Nov 09, 2009 10:59 pm

Yes, I've heard of curing under pressure, but you have to plan a multi-piece mold pour, so you don't end up collapsing something hollow! If you do use a pressure pot, don't used the one from Harbor Freight. I know of at least three failures under pressure (can you say bomb), and the people involved have been seriously injured! Get a brand name US made pot. I have a Binks.
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Re: Cargostar/Models by Dave-UPDATE -NEW CAB!!

Postby old imagineer 501 on Mon Nov 09, 2009 11:19 pm

Whoa! Slow down!! Let me catch up here for a second! :)

Back up and tell me how the heck to you make a mold for a cab? Are you just pouring in casting material and coating the sides? Or do you have some sort of insert? Help me understand the process guys, 'cuz I'm both baffled and intrigued at the same time.

Dave, I'll send you some of my masters later this week.

Tim
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Re: Cargostar/Models by Dave-UPDATE -NEW CAB!!

Postby Aaronw on Mon Nov 09, 2009 11:36 pm

cargostar wrote:Yes, I've heard of curing under pressure, but you have to plan a multi-piece mold pour, so you don't end up collapsing something hollow! If you do use a pressure pot, don't used the one from Harbor Freight. I know of at least three failures under pressure (can you say bomb), and the people involved have been seriously injured! Get a brand name US made pot. I have a Binks.


Yeah, I already made that mistake, I bought a Harbor Freight pot which is one of my reasons (cough, excuses, cough) for not using it much. On the plus side it made me get really fussy about how I lay out the mold, I've actually gotten pretty good at avoiding bubbles without pressure, but I'm going to have to get another pressure pot to cast clear resin.


old imagineer 501 wrote:Whoa! Slow down!! Let me catch up here for a second! :)

Back up and tell me how the heck to you make a mold for a cab? Are you just pouring in casting material and coating the sides? Or do you have some sort of insert? Help me understand the process guys, 'cuz I'm both baffled and intrigued at the same time.

Dave, I'll send you some of my masters later this week.

Tim


Not sure how Dave does it, but the easiest way I can explain doing a cab is to look at it like a bowl. I close up all the openings and build up a lip "above" the bottom of the cab. Then I just fill the cab with silicone which because of the lip continues about 1/2" beyond the cab. Once that cures I remove the clay then liberally coat the exposed silicone with vasoline. I then put the cab rightside up so it is sitting on the silicone, it kind of looks like a snail with a truck cab shell :geek: . I build up a box with legos so there will be a space 1/4 - 1/2" around the cab and about 1/2" taller than the top. Then I just fill the box with silicone. Once that cures you have a two part mold, carefully remove the master and you are ready to start pouring resin.
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Re: Cargostar/Models by Dave-UPDATE -NEW CAB!!

Postby old imagineer 501 on Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:03 am

[/quote]

Not sure how Dave does it, but the easiest way I can explain doing a cab is to look at it like a bowl. I close up all the openings and build up a lip "above" the bottom of the cab. Then I just fill the cab with silicone which because of the lip continues about 1/2" beyond the cab. Once that cures I remove the clay then liberally coat the exposed silicone with vasoline. I then put the cab rightside up so it is sitting on the silicone, it kind of looks like a snail with a truck cab shell :geek: . I build up a box with legos so there will be a space 1/4 - 1/2" around the cab and about 1/2" taller than the top. Then I just fill the box with silicone. Once that cures you have a two part mold, carefully remove the master and you are ready to start pouring resin.[/quote]

OK Aaron, so far, so good. :) ;) So you have your two parts to the mold - essentially the "goesinta" and the "goesoutta" (Picked that up from guys up here in the Wyoming Valley. Not sure if that's another "coal speakism" like "Hayna" or "a couple two tree", but I like it. Sorry, I got off point here... :roll: ) - so you have this inny and outy. Do you guys mix up a batch of casting resin, pour it into the outy, quickly coat the sides and then slam the inny into the outy? What keeps the inny from sinking too deep into the outy? The material you use must cure slower than the Alumilite I'm used to using because I can't imagine being able to do all that before the stuff begins to cure. (Then again, that may be a commentary on my coordination and dexterity, but we won't go into that right now... :lol: )

Thanks for the insights guys. Fascinating stuff.

Tim
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Re: Cargostar/Models by Dave-UPDATE -NEW CAB!!

Postby Aaronw on Tue Nov 10, 2009 1:07 pm

Again not sure what Dave's technique is but for me, unless there is a spot that is a problem and needs special attention it is pretty simple. I just figure out how much resin I need, mix it up well, then dump it into the cavity, I quickly slosh it around to coat the sides well, then I stick the "outy" into the "inny" and goosh it around a little. If I have estimated the resin correctly I should just get a little excess coming out around the plug.

When I put the two pieces together I try to kind of roll the plug into the cavity with the idea of forcing the air out ahead of the resin, then I just kind of rock it back and forth to make surethe resin is well distributed. The stuff I use is very thin when first mixed, so covers well. I only have about 2-3 minutes of working time or the resin starts to cure and it will be too thick for a good cast.

I haven't had any problems with the mold trying to settle too deeply, or otherwise misalign, they just seem to want to fit together the right way.

I also try to have something extra laying around that I can dump the excess or starting to cure resin into, I hate to waste materials. When making a mold I'll have something else ready to mold for any excess silicone. When I'm casting I try to have another mold ready to go for excess / starting to cure resin.
For excess resin I like wheels. I can dump just a little shot of fresh resin into the wheel mold so the outer detail will have nice crisp detail, then as I work I can dump resin that is starting to cure into that later as needed. The thicker resin will still work fine as a filler, it just won't get into the smaller details. Wheels have a good amount of volume and minimal fine detail beyond the hub / sidewall areas. Wheels also make good trading material, everyone likes a set of wheels. :mrgreen:

As you have done some casting I think you will agree there is a certain amount of "this feels right" that only comes from actually casting a similar part. Experimentation is a critical and unfortunately expensive part of the process. I saw a bumper sticker yesterday that seems appropriate.

Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from... Well, bad judgement. :mrgreen:


Also I was wrong on my clay, I have some of the Kleen Klay, but most of mine is Jolly King.
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Re: Cargostar/Models by Dave-UPDATE -NEW CAB!!

Postby Aaronw on Tue Nov 10, 2009 1:50 pm

I'm working on a backboard and a water tank for a brush truck which I hope to be casting between now and January. I will try to remember to take some photos when I do. I have promised a quick tutorial for some time now... :oops:

While not a cab, the tank should do a good job of demonstrating the same basic techniques.
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Re: Cargostar/Models by Dave-UPDATE -NEW CAB!!

Postby cargostar on Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:35 pm

I tried to link from the old forum, but, it wouldn't do it. :( There is a thread on the old board, in "In Progress" on the WLF cab and it has some more pics in it.
http://scalefirehouse.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=152


Because of the undercuts around the windshield, the mold had to be made in three pieces. That way the front interior section can have a balsa insert in it that can be removed to allow the mold to collapse and be removed. The Ford C-cab canopy is the same way, three pieces, because of the rear wall sloping inward at the top.

I do both the "squash" molding method, (pour resin into half of the mold, and then force the other section into it to "squash" the resin), and, a traditional pour mold ( that has a "sprue" and vents, and the mold is together and the resin is added). It depends on the individual master which style works best. I also have a rotational casting machine that will allow hollow bodies (pumper bodies ;) ) It is a whole new set of rules.
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